drydem | defending Neptune

Neptunian ponderings

I have heard a lot about Neptune's retrograde and ego annihilation. There has been the idea that Neptune's retrograde causes the destruction of self and the breaking of barriers. I would like to take a few moments to defend neptune's influence in retrograde.
Neptune is the most watery of planets. No planet symbolizes water energy as clearly as Neptune, it is named after the god of the sea, it rules Pisces and has never ruled another sign, unlike most of the inner planets. As a watery planet it has influence over many watery associated things. Neptune is the planet of dreams, it touches intuition and the internal focus, it is emotional and profoundly mystical.
One thing that Neptune is not, is violently destructive. Neptune does not annihilate, that is far more the province of Mars, or the Sun, or even Jupiter or Uranus. Neptune destroys the way water does. Things erode, but gradually and naturally. Water creates timely endings, faerie deaths. With Neptune in retrograde, the stones will break down under the influence of the waves, but you will be left with a beach in it's place, made of the same materials.
The other main issue with Neptune's retrograde is it's regularity. 5 months out of every year, Neptune enters retrograde. The idea that 5 months out of every year people's ego's are destroyed is not quite right. A good metaphor, or way of thinking of this is like annual tides upon a beach. 7 months each year, the tide is coming in, bringing in new grains of sand, and stirring up those already present. 5 months out of the year, the tideis receeding, removing pieces that are light enough to be carried away. These tides keep coming, year after year.
Now, the current astrological situation has some caveats regarding Neptune's retrograde. The beginning of Neptune's retrograde corresponded with a Lunar eclipse. The Moon is also a watery influence and this correspondence has lead to what could be equated to the tide around the new moon, more extreme than an average tide. The erosion will be stronger than normal, but it will not take anything that isn't naturally ready to end. So the idea of ego annihilation is not perhaps the best way of thinking of it, at least in my opinion. The way I would put it is subconcious spring cleaning.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

I've gotta STRONGLY disagree with ya, Ben!

Neptune is the planet of rebirth and of cosmic connectivity, both of which necessitate ego annihilation before they can be fully realized. Like its namesake, the planet has the potential to put us through the cosmic wringer before washing us up on a shore, cleansed and reborn. Think about Odysseus' travels in The Oddysey - Poseidon, over the course of ten years, takes away everything from Odysseus - his ship, his crew, his hope of returning home, etc - only to wash him up on the shores of Ithaca once his hubris (a rather strong manifestation of ego) has been cleansed by his travels. Being the planet of cosmic connectivity also necessitates the annihilation of ego (you just can't become one with everything while maintaining your own personal Oneness!).

It could be argued that there's a strong reason that Neptune governs Pisces - the last sign in the wheel of the zodiac, the one that speaks about crossing boundaries to different worlds and of cycles ending only to begin again. And, having nearly drowned twice in my life, I can argue that water IS often violent - just not in the way that many of us think, in an age of bombs and guns and destruction that is often the province of Fire. Truth be told, any element can be violent and destructive - we have tidal waves, volcanic eruptions, earthquakes, tornadoes. Therefore, it isn't the elemental association that renders Neptune the planet of ego annihilation - its simply one of the themes that it governs.

Now, I'd hardly say that Neptune governs JUST ego annihilation - it's also the planet of dreams, addiction, fantasy, drugs, etc. And I think it's a misunderstanding to say that Neptune's retrograde motion causes any sort of ego annihilation - certainly when Neptune stations (at the beginning and end of each retrograde) its energies are felt more strongly here on Earth (as is the case with any station) and thus the likelihood of ego annihilation is increased. But (as I was telling Mark) it hardly means that everyone rushes out and is reborn, or that no one is reborn any other time. The odds shift only slightly in a positive direction.

I have loads more I could say on the subject - that profoundly mystical experiences often subsume ego as well, et cetera, ad infinitum - but in the interest of keeping this even remotely short I'll cut myself off. I will say that I'd love to continue this conversation in person - and I won't promise that I won't comment again as more people contribute to the discussion! *grin*

1. subsuming is not annihilating. that's one of my points as to this, annihilation is sudden, active and violent and Neptune is none of these things.
2. I fully believe that you can be both fully yourself and fully one with the universe. It's not a paradox if you don't treat it as one.
3. Pisces may be the last sign, but it's not really the rebirth sign. That's scorpio, the eighth house, the house of death and rebirth.

But we can discuss this in person more.

I should so be writing my paper.

I think part of the issue here is semantics. Look here:
annihilation \An*ni`hi*la"tion\, n. [Cf. F. annihilation.] 1. The act of reducing to nothing, or nonexistence; or the act of destroying the form or combination of parts under which a thing exists, so that the name can no longer be applied to it; as, the annihilation of a corporation.

This is my interpretation of annihilation. Note that it says nothing about the speed with which the act occurs. Again, I maintain that's a flaw in the way our age has led us to interpret the word - when we think of annihilation, we think of nuclear bombs, spontaneous combustion, the Phoenix going WHOOSH!. But the same process can take place over months, years (like ten, in the case of Odysseus), centuries. What matters is that in the end, there is nothing left of what came before. Of all the people that I think would be (or are) talking about ego annihilation, I can say with some certainty that none of them experienced that act suddenly or instantaneously. That's one of the things Cat and I have been talking about regarding the whole Phoenix meme: people get behind the idea of the Phoenix as rebirth, and forget about the fiery death part. Or, if they remember the fiery death, I think some assume that it'll be a quick and (mostly) painless experience - when in reality it can take a LONG time to get to the other side!

It's also relevant to me that in the X2 movie, what Phoenix hints we see are brought about by water - suddenly and violently, at that. Again, I don't think that water is always peaceful or slow - I know WAY too many Scorpios for that to be the case! ;) Regarding Pisces and rebirth - I've heard many people (you included, I think, but I don't want to put words in your mouth) that have called the Pisces/Aries cusp the "phoenix cusp." I find I agree. What you've got there is the Neptunian influence of Pisces (manifested in all sorts of ways - see my earlier comment) being reborn (which necessitates ego annihilation). And what do you get? Aries, the sign of ego, and the beginning of a new cycle.

As far as cosmic one-ness and the dissolution of personal identity, we may have to agree to disagree on that point. To remain yourself outside of the One (or Kether, depending on how you look at it) means that there isn't a One - there's at least a Two. Incidentally, Kether (which for those playing at home is the crown/first sphere of the Qaballah, or the Tree of Life, and which signifies the timeless and eternal, the first manifestation of Deity in the universe) is associated with Neptune as well.

For the record, I like what Bojenna has to say about this as well (though I wonder which Bojenna it was that was speaking...) - occasionally I aspire to be an Aethernaut myself, but I haven't mastered Astro-Ethereal Mechanics just yet. I'll be taking the course again during Second Summer session. ;)

Lots more to say about this, always. There may be some journal entries coming in the near future - but I really do have to get some work done right now. ;)

I'm going to stay out of the astrological side of this argument, being as how I don't know jack about it, but I've got two cents' worth on the topic of word interpretation: saying "that's a flaw in the way our age has led us to interpret the word" is bogus. Language changes, and so if for most people "annihilation" means swift destruction rather than slow, then that's what it means (connotatively -- can I adverb that word?). That shift may leave us without a good, concise word for slow destruction, but that doesn't mean we can drag "annihilation" back to that meaning just by pointing at the dictionary.

I'm going to go stuff my inner language nazi back into its cage now.

I thought about that when I typed it, actually. As far as language goes, I feel the same way.

What I was trying to point out was that my interpretation of the word (since that is, indeed, the way I view annihilation) was different than Ben's or maybe even the world's at large - and that difference is what was yielding conflict in interpretation, rather than the themes of the planet itself. If I say "Neptune is the planet of Totally Subsuming Ego" I mean the same thing. It's just not the way I think it, usually.

Ya Nazi. ;)

Please! Keep the discussion here! For all of us astrological rookies, this is very interesting.

More?

If I've said it once, I've said it a MILLION times -- Neptune is the WOMB planet. She represents BIRTH - with all the pain, trauma, and repression that goes along with it!

The REAL problem is that patriarchal cultures have convinced us that Neptune is another DAD planet. That's a bunch of dung. Jupiter and Saturn are the Big Dads. Neptune is MORE that another Big Dad - its the BIG MOM PLANET.

Neptune = water = the unconscious desire to dissolve the self back into the womb, into a state of completeness, connectedness, wholeness, and the contentment that existed before we were born into incompleteness and the experience of lack and desire. Why does Neptune represent addiction? Imagine the little kid who doesn't want to let go of his mommy, and you've got the right idea. Or the E-Kid sucking on his nipple-toy. Neptune is all about our deep, irrational need to be nurtured and coddled, but there's a dark side to all that nurturing and coddling. Go watch any number of horror movies about abject, devouring wombs and you'll see what I mean!

Bojenna Dylan Poseidon LeFanu
Navigator General of the Outer Spheres
Astro-Etheric Guild of Morbon

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